6. The firm non-secret to being enough: An engine-room look at surviving what we create

If you’re even just mildly curious about the truth behind how some of the best outdoor filmmakers create a documentary, a jungle andventure and survival show—this episode is for you. 

Some, like philosopher Carl Jung, believe that:

“The creation of something new is not accomplished by the intellect … But by the play instinct acting from inner necessity. The creative mind plays with the objects it loves.”

Jung might be on to something.

Even when we’re not working, and we’re watching our favorite show, we’re benefiting from this play instinct. The final result of this play instinct is often: Art. Wherein,

“Art is the elimination of the unnecessary.”

- (Pablo Picasso)

Creating something meaningful, whether it’s writing, acts of service, or films, falls into this act of active play. Especially if you live in the US and filmaking is a present-day necessity. 

The question is, how do the best outdoor filmmakers create, emulate, imagine, and even record real-life jungle survival scenarios? What about when everyone involved is used to living in modern settings all across the US and worldwide?

Would the camera crew, the equipment, the weather conditions on location—all increase the risks of harm from the elements? When does jungle survival filming actually become a survival situation? And how do the best outdoor filmmakers cope with this … yet still create something beautiful?

Hazen Audel, a biologist, wilderness expert, teacher, artist, adventurer, and presenter of National Geographic’s Primal Survivor on Disney+ — talks about his time with some of the best outdoor and jungle survival filmmakers.

Listen to this episode if you’re curious to find out about the pros and cons, the good and the bad, what’s real and what’s not, behind the scenes truths about how the best outdoor filmmakers make things possible, how they survive what they create, and how you can do the same.

—

In case you’re out and about without WiFi later, download this episode now.

Music: Silhouettes by Tobias Voigt (License code: 8IDBGGC5WXLDYLAU)

Previously:

Inside a lone hunter's brain: From asking an unpopular question to being on National Geographic.

In this episode:

Creating something meaningful vs. fulfilling what’s required of us.

US network television, survival shows, and the superhero image.

Overcoming unknown factors: Snake handling.

The age-old respect for the overlooked: a 10-year project.

Handcrafting an un-cheap world one brick at a time.

The 1890s object that taught one man how to build a house from scratch.

Uncharted places on earth: a bucket-list problem.

Gaining momentum with our craft without losing ourselves.

Episode 6 TRANSCRIPT

Creating meaningful art vs. fulfilling what’s required: US network television, survival shows, and the superhero image

THALIA

There's a fascination, particularly with survivor shows and the curiosity, if you will, about whether things are real or unreal, right? 

I think maybe that goes back to what you were saying. We've been so far away from nature. We've been so apart from it that maybe when danger actually does present itself, or real plans and real animals are in front of us, for people were watching or listening, they don't believe that it's real, you know, and they go, Oh, maybe that’s staged, or maybe that's, you know, all of these things. I don't know, what do you think about that? 

HAZEN

Well, I try to be pretty candid and honest about it. I'm making a television show. And all I can do is to show it to the best of my abilities of what I've experienced, and make it as real as possible. But you know, it's still a job. And like I said, somebody's paying for this show to get made, whether it's Discovery Channel, whether it's in so they have to get what they paid for. 

Yeah, when each one of these episodes that I get to do, bash, and we've made 80 some episodes now. So I've been able to invest a month or two in all of these different places around the world, 80 or 90 times. You know, it's pretty awesome. But with each episode. We get about 16 to 17 hours of footage of just my experience. And it's whittled down to 44 minutes. 

Those episodes, because you have to have time for commercials and everything else that pays for the full thing. Um, so they're pulling out the very best parts and making it. This is an exciting adventure show. And I do love it. It's great but so much of it has to fit a format, has to fit a feeling. 

And it's kind of, it's upsetting, you know, if I could, if I could have the magic wand every single show would be so incredibly different, because we're going to go to incredibly different places all around the world. Some places are nice and mellow and really sedate. Some people, some places are just in your face action fonts, but the ratings get the place. That's … no show made a great rating where you're just kind of sitting there peacefully in a chair and big enough potatoes. You know, it's just. Yeah, never won any awards for that, or, you know, you don't get recommissioned, right? 

So for people to get a little bit of a glimpse of what these people's lives are like, you gotta make a television show. I am. My show is pretty unique because. Think that we have the top caliber professionals donning. I mean, if you look at it, it's very proud, artistically, and cinematographically. It’s incredibly well shot. Very beautiful. And has all the … This is the best show out there. 

I don't want to say that it's a survival show though. It's just a unique show, and it's an adventure, and it's an exploration. It's got lots of great animals, hopefully, and it's got a lot of things that I love to be with and love to talk about. 

But there are. Other survival shows may try to categorize this show as a survival show, where. You know, there's some other stick to it. You know, you've got to be naked, or you've got to be tied together, or you have to just continually be suffering, or you have to be alone.

No, and, and there are some, there were some. And I think that makes for good television. But they don't want to chance that. And so that stuff never makes the cut. 

So that makes it look like I'm a superhero. And I don't, I want everybody to recognize that these things that I learn are not a superpower. Like I said, all in our DNA, we all have the ability to learn this stuff and be familiar with it and do it. It's just A, you just practice and get yourself familiar with it. 

And well, anyhow, yes, the show has a lot of action, but there's a lot of elements about these travels that I get to do that, well, I get to have a podcast with you and talk about these other parts about it that are really important to me. And maybe, hopefully, there will be a network out there or something that will allow me to have this sort of television show and that really shows much more of my experience. 

THALIA

Yeah, well, and so much is changing, I think, in that medium anyway. You know, like when national, I mean, you've been doing national geographic for a long time, and that was in the kind of TV format. And now that it's streaming, it's kind of a different audience, slightly, right? And so much is changing. Which is, it's good and bad, you know, we’ll call it what it is. 

But I think to the point of people trying to kind of see whether or people saying, oh, that's real and that's not real. I mean, that's such a generous gift. What you're doing and what your crew and staff are doing. It's a lot of work. And not just the 16 hours of footage. It's all of the months of preparation and all of that. So I think, you know, it's …

And we're entertained by it. We're interested. And we're learning, you know. So I think as long as that goal is achieved, and it kind of touches us in on a human level, you know, it's really, it doesn't have to fit into certain category, I don't think it can just be on its own and have its own merits, which I think is really fantastic. 

HAZEN

Yeah, I think, I think, to make a television show, you're making art. And is art real? When I am out there and we are filming, I’m so much on my own. I'm in my own world. I'm still the same kid that I was in grade school, where they are all resting, and I'm out with a flashlight or something, or or in the muck all night long, looking for, I just can't stop, like, that's what I love to do. And I see things that I want the world to see. So a lot of times I'll catch snakes or something. And the camera people are miles away, and they're sleeping, and they're exhausted. 

Overcoming unknown factors: Snake handling

HAZEN

And so if there's anything, a lot of times I recognize that I have a snake. I wanna show it off. And so the cameraman wasn't there. So that's the one thing about these things are like, sometimes I'll see a snake in. You gotta make sure that the camera sees it, or it's just not. It's like the tree. If the tree falls in the forest, does it really fall? It takes me and catches a snake, and nobody sees the snake. Is the snake even in this world? 

THALIA

And it's, it's kind of true for written, written work as well. And to your point, these stories and things that these artisans that you encountered have done, if it isn't documented in one form or another, that stand for just art. 

HAZEN

Fortunately, we're in such wild places that nature is usually right under our feet while we are filming. So when you get those magic moments where you can get in real time and encounter with, say, for example, a snake, and you see it right there, and the camera is running already, and it's all there, that's pure magic to me. I wish life was like that, because, yeah, I'm constantly going looking for stuff. And those are all the animals that are in the show. And all the things that I see are things that I'm living with. I just have to make art with it and make sure that everybody else can see it. 

THALIA

So now it's almost like that kind of live art aspect of painting the canvas on the go, which is, which is really cool. I think a lot of big mountain skiers talk about meaning lines as well in this way, where every, you know, the snow is kind of different. Every day, the course, when they come down, it's a different line. They're visualizing it, but everything is slightly different at that moment. So it's very kind of have to be in the present, hopefully, is the goal. Yeah, that's great. 

The age-old respect for the overlooked: On architectural preservation, home-building, and a 10-year project

THALIA

I want to talk about your home building project for a minute. Because I'm kind of an architectural preservationist nut. You know, I love things that are … 

HAZEN

Yeah, I’ve done some internet sleuthing on you. Yes, it's a huge part of who you are. 

THALIA

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious about this piece of, I mean, I don't want to say artifact. Because hopefully it's not going to be an artifact, and hopefully it keeps living on. You had shared about a door that was in the grandmother's house, or maybe it was a part of your house, or was maybe stacked somewhere. And you had salvaged it and brought it into your house. What's the significance? Is there a significance of that door? Is it just kind of, oh, I just don't want it to go to waste. 

HAZEN

All that. Yeah. So the house that I'm building I like to say, I've been building it for 10 years, but realistically, the years are starting to add up even more. And if. And if anybody out there has built their own house, they know that it's not a small endeavor, and it is never done. It's so much work. And by the way, just for people who are listening, this is your basically, you're literally building things from scratch. And every year, salvaging beams in wood from some, yeah. 

And unfortunately, everything is like that in my house. So every piece of lighting is handmade or hand scrounged or restored. Everything tells a story and I have become a bit fanatical about it, cause I need to get this house done. But I know where every single board came from and every single board, to me, tells a story. Whether it's salvaged out of that barn, it came out of that camp that burned down during this. I cut this tree down and milled it and put it here. 

And it's, yeah, we were talking about loneliness and I've been thinking about this lately. I surround my things with everything that I've … It tells a story to me. So everything's talking to me, and it's. Every yeah, everything I guess what would I say … I just can't, can't live in a world that's cheap, you know, like, I think when I travel, everything is hand sourced. 

They know, they just as well, they know how to find that particular piece of wood, and they know enough about it to be able to, they know that that kind of wood is brought resistant, and it's one of the only trees around that can ward off termites. So they have it in there. And I carry all that knowledge that I've learned into my house, because I need to surround myself with that sort of stuff. 

I guess, as their reminders or thoughtfulness and it, it's a little bit obsessive, but it's a lifestyle. And I would. And I would rather be doing that than. Living a meaningless day and making money to be able to afford what I have, I suppose. So in that way, I might, I'm not making a lot of money, but I'm pretty rich. But it's not for everybody, because it takes 10 years to build my house. 

The 1890s object that taught one man how to build a house from scratch

THALIA

Well, but there's some, there's value, I think. There's something about fixing things and doing things that's tactile with your hands, right? There's something about it that really captures the essence of human beings. And that it just kind of takes us out of whatever. Whatever fog that we're in, you mentioned loneliness, and it just kind of puts us that energy into something else. 

And. And I love, I love, I love when you mention that everything is speaking to you, because that's how there's certain art things that I just can't seem to throw away. I just cannot. And people are like, throw them away. And I'm usually pretty good at purging, but it's things that I just can't. There's just some. It's, I know that when it's gone, that story is going to be gone, you know. And I just cannot get rid of it. 

So I wonder, was there, you know, with your grandmother's door … Did you remember where she had it? Was it in her kitchen?

HAZEN

No it was in the backyard. It was right next to the blackberry patch. And it was literally in a pile. So all the panels and all the side walls and everything were unscrewed together and it sits in a pile on the ground. And it had been like that for many years. And I think one day when I was a child, I kind of laid it all together, like a big piece of puzzle, and it was a door. And. And so I did the ridiculous thing, gluten it all together and put new glass in it, and maybe pieces where it's last door. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so amazing. 

Well, and it's almost like a piece of grandmother kind of, I don't know if she's still alive or not, but it's going to continue to live on. Yeah, well, it's, it's, it does. It continues to live on, and It's a door that's probably from the 1890s. And it tells a story of when they were building houses in my town, brand new, when everything was handmade. And there was the craftsman that were there, and the tools that are now extinct. Were required to make that. So it tells something to me. 

And I think that's like, when you're empowered with knowledge, you wanna try to incorporate that in your life, I suppose. And a lot of people ask me, well, how do I, how did I learn how to build a house? So, I never learned how to build a house. I just started. Then the nails, and I'm still learning. And I love, I love getting better things. I love learning, and it's feminist. It's been. It's been this, like I said, it's been a lifestyle and a journey. And then, of course build it, and they will come So with doing what I love, the kind of wood that I love, with the old things that I love, and all these different things, I wind up attracting all these other people that love the scene. So now I have a community that I've built. Before that I was an artist, and I did architectural ironwork and built things for buildings. 

Oh God, you know, I was working, I was working. I was working with so many arrogant architects and so many **** contractors. And I hated that. And I. If there's anybody that comes back to go help me with my house, they're not gonna be like that. They're going to be people that I love to spend time with. 

And so if you do it right, you attract the right people that I like, you know, and you were an architect. So you know exactly what I'm talking about. 

THALIA

It's awful. We can't even. That's a whole other issue. 

Gaining momentum with our craft without losing ourselves: Our lifelong battle between materialism and appreciation for the beautiful

HAZEN

And then I was, I also, I think, a little bit about materialism. And wondering if it's true material, like if it's, I'm truly materialistic, because I was talking about that old door, or the kind of wood that I get from our I was the other day, I was working with an old tool, like a hand plane, and most people have electric planes and Sanders and stuff like that. But I was just, I kind of, I got this hand plane. I scrubbed all the rest off with it, and I polished it all up and tightened up everything and sharpened up everything. And it just just was perfect. And then when it, when I was, when I was playing this wood, everything was working so perfectly. This, this dance between the wood and the tool and the sound that was making the feeling. 

And I. And I was, I had a friend give me a call, and you wanted to go hang out. And I actually had to deny it, and I was like, “No, no.” I made some excuse if I couldn't hang up. But it was so I can hang out with my friend, that was a plane. And I thought, that is OK. Watch yourself, because this is materialism. I'm giving this thing this material, a spirit. And I'm talking with it, and I'm prioritizing it over my friend. Watch yourself, because that is materialism. And I guess maybe materialistically, I don't have something brand new that shows people how much money I make. But I have a lot of these things that show off. This is what I know. This is what I love. So it's just another form of materialism. So I do have to, like I said, check myself. 

THALIA

Yeah, well, and it's kind of hard to stop yourself in the work as well, especially because you know that sometimes it's so hard to get into that. It's not even a groove, but it's all, there's almost like a momentum to the craft, right? Like, if you lose, yeah, if you lose that momentum, you have to build it all up again. You might never reach that level of kind of evenness you were saying 

HAZEN

So sometimes, I've definitely done that. It's only this, this zen that I'm in right now. I need more of this. Yeah, I need to keep practicing. 

THALIA

Yeah. And I hope that friend is not listening right now, because they may have figured out that you're, you're just kind of copped out. 

So I wanted to touch for a minute about your, you know, this artistry aspect of your life. And your dad: What does he do? Is he also an artist? A silversmith. My dad, so he supported our family by being a pinstripe, carpet and striper. So you don't see it that often. There's a little bit of a resurgence, but he painted these very fine lines by hand. He laser straight lines along cars, just sort of highlighted the body work in anybody that had their car that won't possess. They'd have my dad pinstriping and now you see it. There's, like, I said, 

There's a bit of a resurgence in it, because just, I think, like, like a lot of the new hipsters, they, they start to see these, these, these new, old, old world skills, and they bring them back together, like making their own chickens and stuff, which is cool. It's so, super cool. And so there's more people that are pinstriping again. But now, like, a lot of hot rods and custom cars might have these, but it's a real skill that you practice your entire life. And my dad just always dreamed about doing it. Both my grandparents on that side never learned how to drive a car. So he always dreamed about having a car. And I think by just having that dream that he built us, he started building his first car when he was 14 years old, in a little garage with a dirt floor and no electricity. He still has that car, actually. So he? How he got to, how he got to who he is? Nobody knows. Because he did not grow up that way. But he, his passions and art and building.

I think I inherited from him, but they just kind of went, rather than me being super fascinated with hot rods and parts. I just wound up being fascinated in nature. But, yeah, so he was a used carpentry stripper, and he loved cars. And so he built hot rods and pinstripe cars. But he? He's always been really good at it. So I think I grew up helping him in the shop. His one word of advice to me is, you have to make sure that you have diversified skills so you can always feed a family. So he taught me how to paint steins. 

Do you want me to kind of learn as much as I could to be able to, yeah, support a family, if it ever, if something collapsed? You know? So, thankfully, Wonderful mentor that just showed me that anything that you can dream up, you can make into a tactile object if you try hard enough. Oh, wow. You were talking about art. Turning things into our art, or, you know, if you dream it and you work hard enough, in my case, I never had enough money to have everything that I wanted. But I can probably build it. 

THALIA

Yeah, you can. By the way, this is such an underrated skill that you have. And I remember there was an episode on Primal Survivor where you build your own, basically, it's not a sunshade, but it's kind of a pair of glasses out of wood. And you have to have the opening a specific way, such that it doesn't let in too much light. But still lets you see. So that is definitely an underrated skill. And I wish more people knew how to do things like that. 

THALIA

Yeah, well, and also, in addition to having good teachers and learning from people who already know what to do, there's, it's also an element of when you do need it, it's about kind of pulling. It's pulling all those skills from your toolbox at some speed, right? And kind of almost keeping your, not keeping your cool, maybe keeping your temper is the better word. 

Rudyard Kipling: In the jungle, life depends on this

THALIA

I remember there's a quote by Kipling, I think, who mentioned that “In the jungle life and food depends on keeping your temper.” I don't know if that's something that you've, that you feel is applicable. What's your thinking about that? 

HAZEN

Yeah, I'm not the best at it. But I recognize how I need to go to … for many years, I was a professional artist building architectural items. So I would build doors and chandeliers and entrance ways for buildings and things. And the medium was steel and metal. And the nature of that work is: everything's hot, everything's heavy, everything's sharp. Everything's messy, everything dirty. And it's chaos. 

And so I recognize from 10 years of doing it, that that started becoming my personality. I was always working in this anger. And it was because of that material. And I needed to stop and stop the hustle. Stop thinking that time is money and go, wait, stop. I actually enjoy this. 

So make less noise, find ways to enjoy this and find a nice pace to work in. So I'm getting better at it. I'm not perfect with it, but I think that's why—I think I made a lot more money doing metal, but—I enjoy working with wood. Because it slows me down. I can find that zen so much easier. If I can make more time to be painting, if I can make more time to draw, I really need to do that. Because that's, that's the kind of person that I like being with. 

THALIA

Yeah. And it's something I think to your point with the heat environment—where there's a lot of metal, clanking and clicking, and things are sparks are flying.

It just kind of, it blends into your biology, almost. You become one with the fire. But we are affected by what's around us and what we're surrounding ourselves.

Uncharted places on earth: a bucket-list problem

THALIA

Is there an end of the road for you in, I know the world is such a big place, and it's so beautiful. Is there one place in the world that you maybe haven't gone, that you want to go to? 

HAZEN

Not any more. Not that I've been there already. There are definitely places that I'm surprised I haven't been to yet. And I’d want to go. Like, I’d really love to go to Brazil. Just because Brazil has always been so big, that you can't just go to Brazil, and then know that you're in Brazil, know that you know everything there is to know about Brazil. But there's certain … I have a lot of friends from Brazil. They just seem like really passionate. Fiery, loving people. I want to see what that's all about. But then you've got so much going on in the country the size of the United States.

I'm going to any place because I have always wanted to go there. There's places that I would feel very fortunate to go to like the Congo in Africa. Just to be able to have access there would be amazing. But I'm not expecting it to be a good time. The way I travel and what would be required to get there. It would be trudging through mosquitoes and malaria. But once you're there, you know, you're seeing stuff that, again, nobody else has seen. It was like such … that would be very special. 

But I think just trying, when you go outside, there's so much to see. And you can only take in so much at time. That there is: it's unlimited. And a lot of people brag about all the different countries that they've seen. Who cares?

Because you can go to Mexico. And Mexico has more ecological diversity than anywhere else in the world. So that alone is crazy. You can get into a forest that looks like Washington state with pine trees. You have the most expensive oak forest anywhere in the world. You have deserts. You have mangroves. You have grasslands. You have coastline. It goes on and on and on and on. So you can't just say that you've gone to Mexico and you know all about it. But also, you can go to that desert and then you're down one. Small, little body, or one little neighborhood. And it's a whole different experience than being right outside of that and dealing with the ranching family. 

So to me, it's not about having a checklist of all these amazing places I've been. I'm just, when I've been there, I've been present, I learned a lot in that one place.

“Now, I realize I’m fighting for …”

THALIA

And you think that being present in a way that is outside of, you know, we've been talking about, away from our own kind of ambitions, it does kind of teach us something different. And I remember, … I'm gonna read a quote by Chico Mendez, who's a Brazilian environmentalist. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he mentioned:

“At first, I thought I was fighting to save rubber trees. Then I thought I was fighting to save the Amazon rainforest. Now I realize I am fighting for humanity.”

And I wonder if that's something that you're observing as well in all your work. I mean, it all started out with the fascination of things that you saw in your textbooks, right? And now, what is it, now, about what you do—that maybe has changed? Or haven't changed, and has always been the same? And that: “This is what I'm … why I'm doing what I'm doing.” 

Getting the last word on our book of life

THALIA

So Hazen, we are coming to kind of the tail end of our conversation here. I do have one last question that I want to ask you. And that's. If I were to write a book about you, you get to write a book about yourself and autobiography. And we're coming down to that last chapter and down to the last paragraph and down to the last sentence. What would you like that last sentence to say about you? How would you like yourself to be remembered and what you want people to say about you? 

HAZEN:I'm on my journey, but my destination. It's just, I want to be as influential as I can. I don't want to be as rich or anything I don’t want to be. I don't want to be a hero. But I want to be a role model. To be able to teach people that they can all have a relationship with nature. We care about the things that we know about. 

And we're in a society where we don't know about nature. But nature is there for us to know. And once everybody knows about it, they'll stop putting a value on it. They'll stop putting money on it. They'll just know that they need it. And then their whole life will be changed. Because they want to have salamanders in their yard. They want to have an environment to have all their friends.  And the friends should be nature. I know it's so easy for everybody to have a relationship with each other. We’re just not exposed to it. And it doesn't cost money. It's not as if it's like I said, it’s some sort of superpower. It's all innate. 

We just need them. Make time for ourselves to be in those places. We don't have to know the name of that. We don't have to know the name of that flower. We just have to be with and familiarize ourselves with it. And then once we're familiar with it, we just can't live without it. 

So If I can be an example for other people to go, “Oh yeah, I can just be outside, and be happy, and be content, and be present in it, and know that I want more of it …,” Then it just opens up this whole lifetime of wanting more of that. And we would be treating the world like we do. 

THALIA

Yeah, I don't know if there are words that I can put in your mouth for that lesson, the sentence. But I can depict a picture that I think if there is an illustration for that last page, it would probably be a block print. A wood-carving or a sketch of some sort … of the woods. And you, taking back that image of when you first had that dinner with the amazing people who took you in. And then now, years later, it's just you and people who you care about and the animals that you've introduced to the whole world. All in its glory, with the trees and everything that's surrounding it. And whether it's a black or white picture, I don't know. But that's kind of the image that I imagine for that closing chapter. 

Hazen, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been a true pleasure. I have been so gifted with this conversation. I'm sure a lot of people who are listening have as well. So thank you for sharing your time with us. 

HAZEN

Thank you, Thalia. I really … Yeah, it was a very nice morning to have spent with you. So thank you. 

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