5. Inside a lone hunter's brain: From asking an unpopular question to being on National Geographic

“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.” - Henry David Thoreau.

Do you agree with Thoreau? 

* How exactly do you live in the modern world without selling your soul to something you don’t believe in?

* Is the point just to work constantly, day in and day out, with a quiet desperation and need to get out—known only to ourselves?

* Is this the real reason why many feel lonely, even when they’re surrounded by friends and family?

If you’ve ever had to suddenly leave everything you know and love, to start a new life somewhere, temporarily or permanently—you’ll know what this means.

Whether you’re an avid traveler, researcher of the world, foreign student, immigrant or you just moved to a different city and state while you’re living in the US—this happens. The reason why loneliness happens—even around friends and family—has long been assumed to be due to physical solitude. 

But how come research by the National Institute of Health suggests that loneliness happens to as many as 80% of those under 18 years of age—during a season of life when one is likely to be surrounded by friends and family?

Listen to this episode if you’re curious about the real reason why we feel lonely, even when we’re surrounded by friends and family, and if you want to know how exactly a National Geographic adventurer went from obscurity to getting paid doing what he loves.

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In case you’re out and about without WiFi later, download this episode now.

Music: Silhouettes by Tobias Voigt (License code: 8IDBGGC5WXLDYLAU)

Previously:

Capsizing the pressure to be self-made: A cautionary tale of the blood thirst for being enough in the US

In this episode:

Observing the Lone Wolf ideology in the US and worldwide: Is it better to go at it alone?

Inside the mind of a real hunter: What really goes on during the day

The origins of the individuality model: The rise and potential fall of an ironclad industry?

Going where no one wants to go: Findings from a 10-year journey into the unknown

Talking to others without really knowing what you’re doing: A riverside chronicle

Making difficult decisions: On whether to keep doing what you’re doing, or to leave

Building an Achilles-worthy muscle tone: from lifelong masters

Episode 5 TRANSCRIPT

THALIA:

This is something that 's been bugging me a lot, because, you know, because, ….

You know, you mentioned standards of measurements being very different in these different parts of the world. And here in the US, everything is about how much money you make, or how successful you are. And it's almost like we are gaming our life into getting as much, or as many things, Let's just get as much done as possible by our 20s or 30s, right? 

And then there's no thinking. And there's, there's thoughtlessness almost in after that. So it's almost like there's no guidance. And then we're just kind of saying, “Oh, if you get all these degrees, accolades, it's all these things, then everything about your life is going to be great. But personally, I’m going to be very real right now with everyone. It's just kind of, and for a while, I thought that was like, well, yeah, of course. That's just how you're supposed to progress in life. 

But then when I had my kids, it was just, it was absolute pain of realizing that I, I need to sleep, and I can't sleep, and I have nobody to turn to. Like, that's just kind of the feeling of that. Which shouldn't be the case for most parents and moms and dads. 

And I remember stories from my mother told me stories. And, close your ears … this can get pretty graphic, but she was raised in the similar situations that you were describing, where the flock and the herd, everybody is involved. And so she was, it was just groups of kids always traveling everywhere. And even when I was a kid in Indonesia, it was just a group of kids. There's never really any adult. Occasionally you'll get, like, the 8 year old or 10 year old, 12 year old who's kind of the person in charge. And we just literally roamed the streets. We just went everywhere. Nobody cares. 

HAZEN:

It was safe. You never had to worry about the weird neighbor because they weren't. Those people would all treat you as if they were your own. That's what I see in so many places in the world where in the United States, you would think of them ass-backwards or, you know, primitive or third world country. 

And I think it's because of our society, like I was saying, we give accolades to those independent, go-getters. You know, I think we cherished them. “Oh, he's such an individual. He's so unique.” And that is great. That is great. And we can do that. But it creates a lot of … “Everybody is so different.”

They’ve been so self absorbed, or individual. Nobody's accountable. So you can get get the weird rapist dude who lives down the street. And there’s no accountability. That he’s there. 

And I think in most places in the world, everybody knows each other so well that everybody is held accountable, and everybody is loved. Everybody has a common goal.

THALIA:

Everybody sort of knows each other to the point that, again, this might be the graphic bit, so everybody can cover their ears. They want to. But I remember my mom telling me that she was wet nursed by everybody who's in the community. And so there's never really any kind of pressure for, you know, moms and dads to take on everything on their own. It's always assumed that you'll have the support of everybody around you, right? And that you will support everybody around you as well. 

Observing the Lone Wolf ideology in the US: Is it better to go at it alone?

THALIA:

So I want to talk about the … Sort of this image that seems to be projected a lot in a lot of these survival shows that you see today. That Lone Wolf superpower. And I kind of get, production-wise, why that happens. 

But is there sort of like a gamification of the culture where people are daring people? “OKAY, I dare you to do that on your own. I dare you to survive on your own in the wild!” And they kind of want, it's almost like a spectacle where they—You know, I mean, I don't know if people can sit and eat popcorn. But they want to see what happens, and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that's happening—It's almost like a sporting event. 

Do you think that's the case? Or, why is it? Why is there such a particular focus on the lone wolf image? 

HAZEN: It’s a Western thing, I will say. Let's just  … An example of: America seems to be the trendsetter. I'm not going to, I mean, it's best to say, I quote and unquote—“modern world, or the Western world, the capitalist world”—They seem to be the trend setters, right? And the unfortunate thing is, they set these trends. And then, the world sort of follows. And I don't think—it's certainly not intentional. But it just sort of happens. 

And we're talking about the individual being so independent, and being a lone wolf. And we're giving people. We sort of horribly respect that. 

Whereas you can go to other parts of the world, where it's much more tribal or community oriented, and it's not good to be individualistic. It’s not good. Because that means you're just taking care of, you're just thinking of yourself. And in a tribe, you have to take care of everybody around you. And that is your happiness. 

Here, we don't want to get burdened by our parents' living with us. Like, I mean, I can even understand, like, I can go, like, “I love my mom, but I don't really want her living here. Uh, maybe,” you know? But in other settings around the world, you do love. You do love that, like you do want. You want that. You want your parents to live with you. You want that. That's your happiness in life. 

And here we find this happiness of just having our privacy. And having this stuff, and, OK, that's great. You're private, but you're also lonely. And we have more loneliness in this country than anywhere else in the world. We have more depression than anywhere else in the world. 

And it all comes down to, the reason why I believe this is, because we've been trained to be individuals. We've been trained to go out on our own, leave everybody else behind, and forge a path for ourselves. That's great!

But as we're doing it, we're losing relationships. We’re losing friends. It's all about us. We become so incredibly self absorbed. we don't mean to. Nobody wants to call ourselves self-absorbed. But we really had to look out for number one to get where we are. And then once you're there, all you kind of care about is your own feelings. 

And you can go into these third world countries, and their life … When you look at it, “Oh, man.” It could be dirty. You don't really have enough health care. Their food is substandard. And their life sucks. Around the world, the quality of life is not so great. But they’re, you know, not suffering from depression. Because they're more invested in  … 

They need to spend their energy making sure that everybody around them can get through the day and get happy. And that's their happiness. 

And I think depression is really about how I feel, “Why is this happening to me?” I wish there was better terminology. But really, it is about how we feel. 

And I think there's none around the parts of the world. People don't have time. They don't have the luxury to just think about themselves. They have to think about other people. So there isn't depression, because they don't have time for that. It's, you know, it sounds crazy, but it's, it's, it's almost a paradigm shift. 

And I think that is one of the huge reasons why there's so many problems that are developing in the Western world. Because we're all being so incredibly successful, because we're all on our own. 

THALIA:

And I wonder if, because of the, you know, industrial age when cars during the boom of the cars and the interstate and all of that. And suddenly you have houses, where the biggest feature that they have are garage doors. As opposed to a separate barn, where you put your carriage.

So there's … suddenly you have this shift and focus on, “OK. How can I get to places the fastest? How can I get to these places fastest on my own?” 

And so there's almost that segmentation that’s suddenly created. 

And without it, without us realizing, that may have been the reason why we're, you know, in the United States, there's such a focus on individualism, kind of the individualistic culture, like my property … 

HAZEN: And it never ends. The wonderful thing about us in our society, in the western societies, is that we can learn about anything, especially now. Yeah, we just tap the keyboard, and we’re there. We know everything we need to know. It's right there. And so once you start having access to that, both the material things and knowledge of things, there's never an end to it. 

So you never know enough. You can never do enough. 

And, yeah, I think we all like you, you’re most certainly a go-getter. And, yeah, what next? And especially like being a capitalist, being how we were all, how we are raised in the United States. That's what requires a paradigm shift, in a capitalist society. There is, without growth, there is no capitalism. So we always have to continually grow. 

We have to get, we have to get bigger for it to work. We can't be just fine. Because we will get left behind. And that also is, there's no way to have contentment there. 

And I think life is, a lot of it is just finding contentment. 

And I see that … just another example of contentment and also being present.

But like, I see, oftentimes, when I'm on my travels. And I'll be talking with another adult. And they may have a son or a daughter that they're taking care of, like a seven or eight year old. And as adults, talking shop, and talking stories, and talking about things that you engage in conversation. And the child just zones out. Zones! And just sit. And kind of look around. And they're perfectly fine. Then they can do it. 

It's like you could say, “Wow, your child is so incredibly well behaved.” It's like, “No, they just found contentment.” They have that. They have that life skill of just being able to be just fine. 

Whereas, do you think that's going to happen in the United States? 

No, you have to constantly be like, engaging with this child and engaging in the adult conversation at the same time. Because people have lost that ability, that skill. And yeah, as a Westerner, we have to constantly be on the move, rather than:

Just go home, this is, “I live within my means.Now that I have all my bases covered, I have food and warm shelter. OK, now I can be with people. I can find enjoyment in laughing.”

Inside the mind of a real hunter: What really goes on during the day

HAZEN:

Like hunters and gatherers, like the tribe that I was with, like the Kiichuas and Huoranis, in Ecuador. You would think, living off the land and being a hunter, you're constantly scouring the land for food and barely getting by. 

No. A typical hunter and gatherer works in a farm, or gathers wild food, or hunts, during the most prime time of the day, early morning, when it's not that hot. And you work for about two or three hours. You have a good time, because you're with your friends. You’re with your girlfriends in the garden. You’re with your friends hunting. You’re with your buddies fishing. You come back home. You had enough to feed the family. And the rest of the entire day is with your people. 

And you can, I think, television, you know, they want to portray these hunters and gatherers as these savage cave men that are so incredibly tough. And there's so much bravado. 

No. You’ll  see two men. And the one man might be working and dealing with something. 

And the other warrior just has this hand on his shoulder. Nobody’s not touching one another. 

And they're that close, and there's no one who is ever alone. And they're like that their entire lives. You know, that's like, life is pretty good. 

Yet, we think we're so advanced, and we need to get away from it. You know, it's awesome. 

THALIA:

I think I'm definitely guilty of this, sort of that temptation and pressure. Definitely, to just kind of always be the go-getting. And because that is sort of what's being taught at schools, right? And that's kind of a problem. I think that's the focus. And I don't even know why. 

I mean, grading is a whole other topic. But even just that idea that you're being graded for specific milestones … Because that programs kids to look for  … to just kind of succeed based on the tests. Or a particular milestone or measurement or ruler. Even though it doesn't really apply in life. 

And, and so I'm definitely guilty of that. And still, to this day, sometimes I’d get that kind of feeling of pressure of, “OKAY, well, I got to do this.”

And now, though, maybe there's a little bit more thoughtfulness. And maybe I don't have to do that. Maybe I can just be reminded of: that being with self, which you were talking about, people are just hanging out and just kind of be comfortable in the lack of noise. 

I think that's something that we're not used to as well. There's so many inputs in our life. 

So I want to talk for a minute about so you mentioned the Huoranis. Are they the group that you’d say you spent the most time with? I mean, you started with them when you're 19. 

Going where no one wants to go: Findings from a 10-year journey into the unknown

HAZEN:

I probably spent the most time with the Kiichua. The lowland Kiichua. I got an opportunity to spend many years with the Huorani. And they're amazing as well. And the Solomon Islands. Inner Mongolia. All over to Africa all through Asia, it just goes on and on.

I guess, in the end of it, I can just say, the human race, outside of what we're familiar with … is incredible.

THALIA:

Cause I'm kind of curious to hear about that time when the kids, when you were 19 in Ecuador, and they took you into their hut. Do you still remember their names by any chance? 

HAZEN:

I do. When I left to go experience the rainforest. I just, it was all based on me wanting to see wild animals. My whole agenda was to go see the stuff that I had always seen in my aquariums or in my books. So I want to see it in real life. I want to see an emerald tree boa. I want to see an Oscar that's, you know, an Oscar fish that's in the river. I want to see a real life macaw. And that was my agenda. And I thought, that's about as deep as I would get. 

“Oh yeah, I'll be there for, I don't know, a couple weeks until, until the money runs out,” You know? And then I'll go back, and I'll at least see it. 

Well, little did I know that three weeks turned into about 8 months of my life. At an incredibly impressionable time in my life, when I was 19. But I couldn't have ever planned a trip like that. 

I was very shy at that time, you know, I was kind of trained to think that I'm gonna get kidnapped. And I'm gonna drink the water. And I'm gonna die. By either two of those means. 

So I was kind of, I went to Ecuador on my own with the backpack. And I had all of my camping gear that I had since high school. And I was incredibly naive. Thinking that I could just hide in the bushes. And when nobody's looking at me, I found this little kind of wild area alongside this loop. And it was already pretty remote. 

It was at the very end of the end of the bus route, the end of the road, where nobody wanted to go.

And I set up a tent. And I thought, “I had enough rice to last me, I think, for a couple weeks. And I thought I could supplement my diet with fishing for whatever I could fish for.” And I was looking for the fish that were in my aquariums. 

But as I was there, and spending time there. By about two weeks, I started recognizing: you can't just pop a tent on the forest floor, in the rain, and expect survive. Because everything is rotting away. The jungle is literally growing over your tent. And mud and everything. 

So I essentially threw myself in the river. 

Talking to others without really knowing what you’re doing: A riverside chronicle

HAZEN:

But then, while I was fishing, I saw these children that were really killing it. They were getting all kinds of things across the river.

THALIA:

You must be so envious.

HAZEN:

And I was getting these little piddly things. And of course, I wanted to know, “How are they catching those fish? What's their bait? What do they know?” 

And it was kinda like this jealousy. But also scared. Because I didn't want to be discovered.

But they had curiosity. And whenever they could, they'd sneak across the river and spy on me and see what I was doing pretty soon. We had more and more encounters until I was able to see what was in their basket and in their buckets. With all the different kinds of fish. 

I didn't speak the language. But I knew enough to kind of get by. And then I was just, even though I was 19 and they were about seven or eight years old, we wound up being kids fishing together. 

And then I think they told their parents that “There’s this weird kid living in the tent, all by himself, down there.” And then I got invited to go stay with them, in their homes. 

And that was the first time in my life where I had ever been in a house where the floor of the house was made out of branches of bamboo. The roof was made out of thatching from palm trees and all the posts. And I just was taking it all in. And they were eating everything that they were catching.

There's a common Latin phrase. It's called “Mi casa, su casa.” Mi casa es su casa. It's like, my house is your house. It's essentially an invitation. Once they have figured you out, which is about as long as it takes to have dinner with them, they know you're good. They know that you're a good person. They know that their kids like you. And it's essentially: You’re part of the family. You’ve been with us. You’re a good person. You're welcomed anytime. 

And I've never really been around that, you know. 

And then by spending more and more time with them, and then I think it didn't take them very long until they were like, “You know, you should just come live with us. Because you shouldn't even attempt to go out there, because you're, you're gonna die.” 

So those people  … And then just experiencing their daily routine following the kids. And going out and trips into the jungle for miles. And not knowing what they're after. They were after a certain, a very specific kind of tree that they were gonna cut down. A branch of it to make a pole. So they could use their dugout needs to go up and down the rivers. Like they saw, they went on this wild goose chase to look for the specific tree that looks like all the other hundreds of species of trees there.

But they knew exactly what it was, and then I started realizing, Wow, these eight year olds and nine year olds know every single name of all these things out here.

And I finally found my people. I found the people that actually know how to find an emerald tree boa. They know they can lead me right to it. 

And so why would I want to leave?

Making difficult decisions: On whether to keep doing what you’re doing, or to leave

HAZEN:

So, yeah, I stayed there for eight months. Learned the language. And then, pretty soon, I remember after that life-changing experience: Needing to come back home. Or else I was going to be kicked out of school. And I was trying to get my bachelors: my biology degree in college. And I'm the first person in my entire lineage to have gone to school. I wasn't a strong student. And if I wasn't returned back, I would not be able to go to school. So I have to go back. 

But every day I was thinking about that experience. And wanting to get the hell out of school and go live with those people again. And that's exactly what happened. You know, the last day of school: then a few months later for the summer, I was back at that same place. And then that just became my lifestyle, pretty much. Living half of my life over there in that stretch of the river. In that community. 

Imagine having dinner under the sky, like this

THALIA: I'm curious about your depiction of that first dinner that you had with them. 

And I know that, I mean, most of our tables here in the US—it’s either a circle, or like, a long kind of, you know, boardroom type of dinner table. Did they sit in a particular configuration? 

Because my interest is so much in just the psychology of human beings and the way that they relate to each other physically, and also in architectural preservation, and how people create a home in every sense of the word. 

Whether it's with the people around them or with the actual building itself.

Was there anybody who speaks the most? Or was it all laugh? Or was it pretty kind of silent and stoic? Did you remember anything about that? 

HAZEN: The one thing that I noticed a lot is that there's a lot of laugh. They're constantly laughing. And giggling. And doing stuff like that. I can remember that first dinner. 

I was sitting on the floor. So the floor is raised up off the floor. So it's up on posts. About four or five feet up above the ground. And the floor was made out of crushed bamboo. And the kitchen was essentially a wooden box full of ash and sand. That was in the corner of the house. There were no walls to the house. They were just four posts. 

So you just looked out over the jungle view. So, no windows. The windows are all jungle. There was the dark thatched roof. And their kitchen was just a smoldering little fire in this box of ash that was in the corner of the house. And the ash and smoke kind of filled up the roof up above. And everything was black. 

There was no furniture. There was no table. There was no chair. If you wanted to sit somewhere, you just dangle your feet over the floor. You know, if you can imagine that. Maybe you could lean up against one of the posts. But very simple. 

And we had plates There was a fruit. Like a jackfruit. Or like a big bread fruit that was, it was in the season. Everything was falling. 

They would let these big fruits fall, like about the size of a rugby ball. And then they were rotting on the ground. And as they were rotting, they were these big seeds that were about the size of a ping pong ball. And they're boiling those seeds. I never had those. Didn't even know the name of them. And they kind of tasted like  … boiled potatoes.

And then fish from the river. And I was eating the fish that, you know, I would have spent my allowance on, having it in my aquarium. But I was eating it for dinner. And it was all under candlelight. 

Building an Achilles-worthy muscle tone: from lifelong masters

HAZEN:

About 10 years ago, I spent about seven months in Southeast Asia. At one point, it was like, “Wow, this is month three. And I haven't sat in a chair.” There's not a chair. Everybody sits on the ground. Everybody eats plates on a tapestry, or a banana or a woven something on the ground. Everybody's on the ground. 

Our anatomy in the United States is: we have to sit in a chair. We have to sit at a table. But their anatomy: they’re so much more stretchy than us. Because they've never had a chair that they can actually, they can sit.

And I know that you recognize it. Because I know that you can see your grandma. And you can see your grandma and mom doing this: they can sit flat-footed on their foot. And their butt is sitting on their heels. And they're sitting flat footed. 

Know what? No American is that stretchy. Even the yoga master can't do that. But if you, if you're, if you've been sitting like that your entire life, that's your point of relaxation. You don't need a chair. And you're that much closer to the floor. 

I know you're laughing because you know how real this is. These are master woodworkers doing all their cabinetry. And with the chisel and hammer that's sitting on the floor, and they're sitting on their floor: doing masterful work. 

And it's like, “Wow, three months!” I have not sat in the chair. 

THALIA: Your posture, your muscle tone changed. But I think, for people who don't know what Hazel's talking about, this is kind of like it's squatting, basically. Right? But squatting in a sense that when you’re sitting flat footed, your whole sole is basically on the ground. It's not like tippy toeing on the tip of your toes. Not quite like that. And they can do that for hours, too. 

I mean, I'm sure it's good for your bowel movements. Good for all, you know, all of the core, everything that everybody here in the US always works so hard on. Just squat. Yeah. 

HAZEN: Essentially, your Achilles tendon, if you begin to sit in chairs ever since you're a school child, your tendons are not stretchy enough to be able to do that. So you have to have lived like that your entire life to be able to maintain that sort of flexibility, to be able to do that comfortably for hours on end. While—as you're pointing out—while they're cooking and crafting all of these things. Yeah, it's really quite remarkable.

[TO BE CONTINUED …]

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