4. Capsizing the pressure to be self-made: A cautionary tale of the blood thirst for being enough in the US

What’s with the pressure to be self-made? Especially in the US. 

In a world where being a lone wolf superhero is a sign of strength—there’s the constant pressure of finding success by being self-made. Even if it makes us miserable.

Like taking on something we hate because it just makes us sound good. Going after the money because that’s what you “should” do. Or ignoring our conscience because that’s what everyone else is doing.

But some, like Hazen Audel, stick to their calling. A biologist, wilderness expert, teacher, artist, adventurer, and presenter of National Geographic’s Primal Survivor on Disney+ — Hazen spent much of his time with traditional communities in South America, Asia, and Europe. 

Even though he lives in the US, he spent much of his life worldwide, studying and teaching skills only few possess, like: bushcraft, fishing, hunting, shelter-building, roof-construction, raft creation, foraging, tropical biology, and ethnobotany. He’s lived with traditional communities like Brazil’s Houranis, Ecuador’s Kiicha, Africa’s Samburu, and Laos’ Mekong. 

The pressure to be self-made in the US, may have been the root cause of us going from one ill-suited lifestyle to another.

Listen to this episode if you’re wondering what exactly is going on with all the pressure to be self-made in the US and worldwide.

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In case you’re out and about without WiFi later, download this episode now.

Music: Silhouettes by Tobias Voigt (License code: 8IDBGGC5WXLDYLAU)

In this episode:

The one person who can champion the passion for things people think are strange.

Charisma in the animal kingdom: fostering the courage to handle snakes, scorpions, and creepy crawlies.

Deciding what’s worth bringing back from your travels.

The dark side of medicine: Are we totally missing the answer to a lot of our problems in the US?

The Last Tools on earth: thousands of years of unwritten human history that you need to know.

Being at the intersection of two worlds: What to do when you have to fly around the world all the time.

Why other people don’t always “get it”—whether it’s your passion, interest, or way of life.

When someone disagree with your vision: A ballad of meaning in National Geographic, Icon Films, and independent movie-making.

How Primal Survival actually ended up on National Geographic: One man’s journey of intelligent perseverance that took him from the US to world adventurer.

What different Hollywood producers actually think of culture.

Episode 4 TRANSCRIPT

Capsizing our way up to being enough: A cautionary tale of bloodthirst in the US

THALIA:

So I want to start with this question, because I've been curious about this particular object that you seem to have with you everywhere you go, or maybe a type of object. You mentioned when you were 19 and you started out in Ecuador, which we'll talk about in just a little bit, you had a tea kettle that you stuff $70.00 into.

And also, I noticed when you went, when you were younger, with your dad, every August, and you went on these awesome epic trips, just across the country, I noticed that you also mentioned that you had a coffee can, and you stuffed the cool, rolly pollies and grubs and all these other things. And it also seemed like when you were younger, even  … That's something that you did. 

Do you still do that? Is that something that you have in your truck? Or has the novelty sort of worn off?

HAZEN:

I think you are spot on. Yeah, yeah, you targeted a couple things that are part of my history. That's not a history of the present moment.

I do think that I was, when I look at the antics that I still carry out today, it's things that I learned that I loved when I was a kid. And I honestly have never grown out of it. I guess I will say, still to this day, I consider myself a professional kid. But yeah, as far as catching rollie pollies, and I used to shove back in the day, I can age myself here  … —

But prior to pretty much tupperware, there was a gallon coffee can with the plastic lid on the top. And then you take a screwdriver, and you pull holes in the top, and you go out and catch things. And I can  … I can open up a can of coffee and smell that. And it immediately put me into the zone of, oh yeah, there should be frogs or snakes in here. The smell of coffee, I don't know. But yeah, I always thought that everybody really loved snakes. Everybody loves kids in the boys. And it felt like that, you know, you could, when I was younger, you could kind of wrangle up just about anybody to start looking at the bark and stuff and looking for stuff. And beatles and everything. 

But I think what I really  … I was shocked to find that they weren't all that interested in that stuff anymore. 

And my interest in that, in doing that, never ceases. So by the time you are in grade school, where  … I was always escaping under the holes in the cyclone fence. And then during recess, I’d be looking for drain mammoths. And I'd always be bringing back snakes, and cicadas, and whatever I found during those few minutes of free time during school.

And I never wanted that for myself. It was just, I've always been able to do what I love. And I'm, I guess you just, I do it ceaselessly, in that reckless abandonment  … I can go back to my days of grade school. I think I always was, I didn't know how much of a misfit I was. 

But I,—OKAY, what did they say—“add to my own drama”. And even though I think I was a nightmare to try to control. And as a student, when I was younger, because I was constantly daydreaming. And I think they have terminology for now, ADD and all that sort of stuff.

The one person who can champion your “weird” passion

HAZEN:

But for every single teacher that I had in my grade school, what came with me was: every teacher had to inherit the fish tank. It was kind of a terrarium that I kept with me. And I think that's just the only thing that could  … Well, it was pretty much after every recess I had something. And it wasn't going to be contained. It was going to be let loose in the classroom. So every teacher had it, had it, had that terrarium. 

And it was always full of some sort of animal. And then, and I guess, yeah, I looked at it as for myself. But I also, I think—I always felt like I was showing people how cool that different kinds of: that one particular beetle was that I found. Or that one spider. Or how unique it was that I found the salamander in the back of the schoolyard. 

And then the kids would like it. But that's just, so, I guess now, as we're talking, I’ve always known that I've blooded myself. But I also. Again, here, I am in my mid 40s thinking, you know, I, I think I've always loved educating. I've always loved sharing my passion. 

THALIA: So, um, was there ever a teacher who particularly encouraged you?

HAZEN: Fortunately, I think I can say, one thing that sticks out of my mind is my fifth grade teacher. I think, me being a teacher, you know, a professional teacher, high school biology teacher. I can remember my 5th grade teacher just allowing me to have the windows of the classroom as a place for me to grow plants and start to have little fish tanks. And I had this whole menagerie of all these different things. 

And even though I was being pulled away to go into the special reading group and the special math class, I think he’s that one particular person saw that I had a—I don't mind saying it's probably a real gift. something that was unique. Like I said, I was, it was a very unorthodox passion that I've always had. And he fostered it. 

Charisma in the animal kingdom: The courage to face snakes, scorpions, and creepy crawlies

THALIA:

Is there an animal that you've always, even to this day, you just kind of, you know, nerd out over that. Where you're like, “Oh my god, this is the coolest thing ever!” Even though you've seen it multiple times. And then you're still kind of, every time you see it, you're like, you know, can you have that kind of childlike exuberance? Is there a favorite animal?

HAZEN:

Well, even just right now, you're, you're catching me. I did a red eye trip. I've been driving across the state all night long. I got in about 2:30 in the morning. And I woke up and it's new plant life, new ecosystems. And of course, it's spring after a very long winter. 

A lot of people, I think, are attracted to the big lions and big charismatic animals. But you can get a teeny tiny pseudo scorpion and I’d get just as excited as I would be if I was to see this  … a big elephant. 

You know, it's easier to be excited about an elephant. But for me, no, it has just as much wonder to me. Yeah. And I think it's kind of, it's hard for people. Especially with scorpions and things—the creepy crawlies.

Maybe people’s first reaction is always like, “Oh my gosh, it's scary and I want to get rid of it.”

What’s really worthwhile: Deciding what to bring back from your travel

THALIA:

What’s your process in deciding what to bring back or not? Because I know that with traveling, a lot of times things don't always survive the shipping. Or do you just kind of, I'll just build a new one? 

Do you have a stash full of things that you're like, “Oh, this is stuff that I'm going to hang up in my house.”

HAZEN:

I have a lot of things that I'm really interested in. And for some reason, I have to surround myself with them. And I wish I could be that other person that keeps them nice and orderly and clean. But I mentioned that I'm building my house. Yeah, I am building a house big enough to contain my clutter. I hope I'm not a hoarder. But in some people's eyes: maybe. 

Especially on your travels, there’s so many things that you'll never see, ever, ever again. And a lot of them have sentimental value, or they tell a great story. I don't know if there's ever going to be somebody that I could tell these stories to. But I have it, you know. And most of the time, especially for my travels, you need to keep those mementos. It's just to realize how much you’ve suffered. Or how much you became enlightened in that moment. 

And as far as bringing live species across the border, AKA smuggling things: I think I'm on a list. I don't get away with this stuff that much any longer. My bags are always checked. I'm always pulled aside and scanned. And I did get, pretty much, my master's degree in invasive species. So I am quite cautious with that sort of stuff. It's just more incentive to get myself back out there to see it, rather than trying to bring that stuff home—the live critters, anyway. 

THALIA:

Yeah, do you show any of these things? I mean, not the creatures per se. But, you know, I don't know, a tool of  … fishing tool that you created with some of the traditional local people living in remote communities. Do you bring anything? And then at home, do you then show it to people that you love, like family or stuff? But you do that?

HAZEN:

I do. I'm actually just next week  … I’m going to be rounding up a lot of the things that I've acquired over my travels. And there's a—this sort of genre—it’s called primitive skills or ancestral skills, or Bushcraft, or some people might say: survival skills. But I'm going to a big gathering of people that are interested in this from all over the country. And all I do is show and tell for all these, all these nerds that are out there, loving bushcraft from wherever they're at. 

Not everybody gets it. Not everybody wants to see how … There are us nerds out there that really nerd out about these little nuances and stuff. And, yeah, they're great teaching tools.

And again, a lot of things that I see. And you'll, you'll never see on the Internet. You'll never see them in a book. It's one of those things, it's the more you know about something, the more you care about it. 

And I think if somebody travels, they'll just see a bow and arrow and arrow. But, yeah, if you dedicated your life to archery: You look at every single detail.

The Last Tools on earth: Thousands of years of unwritten human history that you need to know.

HAZEN:

And that, to me, it's kind of like a book. And I want to bring it home and read it and study it and see really the, not only the practicality of why they made it in such a way, but the tradition and the folklore behind it. And a lot of these different things that I'll bring home are  … they might just be very specific to that neighborhood in that jungle.

It could be that person. That tiny, little stretch of river. That one part of the coral reef. Those things are really interesting to me. And I'm able to travel at a time in our human history where, you know, that the things that you get to see, might be the last time anyone will ever be able to see that. Because cultures are so  … they're changing so much. The traditions are changing. And knowledge is being lost.

So I guess  … A lot of the times, I kind of feel like there's a little bit of responsibility to study this. And for some of us to bring home. 

THALIA:

Are there artisans that you've encountered or learned from, you know, from these different travels that you're doing, who, now that you're returning—they've  gone, or 

HAZEN:

I just lost two very good friends that I kind of looked at as  … they were—that might sound cliche, but—“the libraries of their culture.” A lot of these, for a lot of these different cultures that I'm able to get to, they don't have, necessarily, have a written language. Their knowledge is being passed down from son to grandson. From daughter to granddaughter. And it goes on like that. 

HAZEN:

And they’re being moved away from their natural regions, you know, where they  … where they may have been living for generations. So then people are being relocated. A lot of these people are kind of getting more into the western approach of living where they're more dependent on money. More so than hand-to-mouth living. 

Whereas if that knowledge that's been refined—for honestly a lot of these places: for thousands of years—If all of a sudden that knowledge is obsolete  … Well, I see that, and it's, it's tragic to me, and a lot of people say, “Well, it's, if it's obsolete, then why do we need to keep it around?”

The dark side of medicine: Are we totally missing the answer to a lot of our problems in the US?

There's, I think right now, I think probably, the most tangible example of that is so many of our even modern medicines. If you look at the origins of that, it does come from chemicals that are naturally existing in the natural world. And so us humans found something about that chemical. And then as humans as we are, we like to see what that chemical is. 

And then, now that we're in the money economy, how can we turn that chemical into a way to make a lot of money? So then we're chemically synthesizing. We’re doing all that to where now we can go to the doctor's office and not realize that our painkillers have anything to do with botany. But about 80% of our painkillers come from opium and come from the naturally existing plant. 

And it's not as if we're manipulating those compounds to make them better. In our world today, a lot of those compounds have worse side effects or effects for our bodies that our human bodies have never been exposed to. A lot of these chemicals are becoming, well, as we know, a lot of these chemicals are becoming more and more addictive. 

But that being said, we can go back and say, there was knowledge there that allowed us to have these advancements in modern medicine. And there's still this knowledge out there.

There's a lot of cultures around it, where their only medicine cabinet is found in the jungle and found in the forest. And they have a knowledge base of thousands of kinds of plants. But modern medicine or science has really only tapped just a handful of those compounds out of what could potentially be.

Chemicals that, there's a good possibility that a lot of these chemicals could cure many cancers, could cure many of these primary killers in the human race. 

But if we don't have anybody that knows anything about the plants enough, then here we are, just left to try to come up with advancements. It's hard to come up with something that's where, you know, nature's been diversifying and refining itself for millions of years. 

And we're not going to be able to accomplish anything that complex in our generations. 

Being at the intersection of two worlds: What to do when you have to fly around the world all the time

THALIA:

I think it's also something about, you almost have to understand the, you know, the plants and the humans in its own natural habitat to have almost this emotional investment in them. it's almost like the shift in what we consider as beautiful, important, worthwhile and valuable, right? 

I’m reminded of this one time when I went to inner Mongolia. And this is now … I remember when I saw them the first time. So I've seen pictures of them. I remember kind of being so stunned at just, I mean, their skin was so dark from the sun and the high elevation. They have these deep … I call them “wisdom lines”. I know people call them wrinkles. But to me, it's wisdom lines. And their eyes are kind of red from the sun. 

And I was so excited. I took pictures. I remember, I could not wait to show these pictures to my friends back here in the US. And when I did, it was kind of,  … I mean, I didn't want to say that I was disappointed at the lack of reception. 

But I was kind of like, “I wonder why they didn't appreciate it to that level that I did.” And it kind of reminded me: “Well maybe it’s because they didn’t see them in their natural habitat. And they didn't see the whole story.

So I don't know if that's your perception as well. 

HAZEN:

I could say this, and it might sound really sad. But I suppose I'm used to it now. And I live with it. I'm fortunate that I get to live a lot of different lives. And like I said, I drove in a car. I drove 6 1/2 or seven hours in the middle of the night last night while I'm in this part of the world. And I’m in a house, talking to you over fiber optic cable somewhere. 

I also, I’m fortunate to live a life where I’m without electricity for an entire year. I can’t go to a grocery store. You've got to grow your food. You've got to find your food. And it's kind of now I can just step right into it. And it's not as if there's any sort of culture shock or anything. It's just like, yeah, this is, this is it. This mode is, it's already who I am.

But I think I absolutely understand what you're talking about with your photos that you take, because I'll have these experiences that have indeed shaped my life. They shaped my understanding of how I see the world. And I come back into the United States, into my home. And there I am, “OKAY, I got to fire up the lawnmower. I have these distractions.”

But people went, “How was your trip? And then I can't just tell them about this experience that I've had for the last nine months. Living with indigenous people and being in a jungle. 

And your language starts to turn into the sounds of the forest, rather than all of this, the vocabulary that we're getting fed on Instagram and all that. 

And, and, you know, all you can kind of say, because you know that they're not going to be there for a while, and really listen to your story. You just kind of have to say, “Yeah, it was, it was, it was awesome. It was great.” Because really, all they want to know, all they have time for, “Is the beach nice?” 

But it had nothing to do with the beach. It had this whole … I just went through a life changing quest. You know, this right of passage. 

And you have to sit down with somebody and go from day one about: Why  … How come you recognize that the red of their eyes means something? It means this penetrating sun. It means the hard work. They've had to live outside. And they've always had to do it. It means that they haven't had a roof over their head. It means so much that you picked up in that experience. 

Just people don't get it, you know. 

Why other people don’t always “get it”—whether it’s your passion, interest, or way of life

HAZEN:

And you wish they did, but I will say it was many years ago when I kind of felt like that. I just gave up. 

I can't just, I can just kind of tell them some highlights. Because if you go into detail, it just goes, they just start to glaze over. And, yeah, I want to talk about it. Because, as you can tell, yeah, I'm passionate about it. It shapes who I am. It's my language. 

But since I don't have anybody to talk to about it. Like when I said—and don’t get too sad about it—but it's lonely. 

Because nobody knows. 

THALIA: Mm-hmm. 

HAZEN: Fortunately, with my shows now, I get to share my adventures with the film crew and you go through those kinds of experiences, those people. Those are lifelong friends. Because they understand something that no one else in the entire world will ever understand. Even if it's your wife or your partner. Or they’ll never get it. It's the people that were there in the trenches of you. And there's a bond there. 

And so, yeah, it's, in a lot of ways, I do feel very lonely. I kind of carry these giant secrets with me, when I'm, like I said, just trying to keep my head above water living as a westerner.

THALIA: And I think when you mention loneliness, it kind of, I mean, the best analogy that I could kind of describe it: Toggling between two worlds. Which, I mean, even if you're used to it, the way you are switching back and forth, there's still a little bit of that, if you spend nine months somewhere. And it's a completely different way of life. And you mentioned no groceries, no …

It's almost like this distant dream that you're trying to hold on and trying not to wake up from, because it's this beautiful dream. 

And then when you do wake up from it, it's kind of like, if you come from a pitch black cave. And then you kind of come up for light, and everything is burning. I think maybe that's a better analogy. I don't know.  

But if I hold onto it, great, then I can kind of, you know, continue to do this good work and do amazing things out in the wild. If I don't hold onto it, it's almost like, then maybe I'll end up losing this bit of life that makes it so unique. 

THALIA:

But I want to ask you about … an experience that you had, that you mentioned in the past, where, earlier in the years, when you started your National Geographic Primal Survivor, you've mentioned in the past that you had to advocate for culture to still be featured in the show. 

Because there seems to be a movement towards just featuring just the superhero—which is fine, it is fine as well—

Advocating something no one gets, when someone disagrees with your vision: A ballad to National Geographic, Icon Films, and independent movie-making

HAZEN:

Yeah. Well, so I have been in television, you know, I guess in it for 10 years. And it pretty much started from when I did a pilot for Primal Survivor, which at that time was called Survive the Tribe. 

And the pilot was, I had “conned” some producers into coming to see what my life was like in Ecuador. And they were kind of the only people that I think like a lot of my teachers, you know, they were the only ones that gave me the time of day. They saw something there.

And maybe they had to hear stories second hand about me, rather than me telling these tales. And he thought, “Wow, that's pretty interesting. So you've been living in Ecuador for about 10 years, and then 15 years. And you have all these stories that seem a little bit too wild to be true. “But I don't know. Maybe there's something to it.”

And I was able to have Icon films to come with me. And I even said, when we're filming, I said, 

“You know—this stuff—I get to see stuff that no one has ever. You guys would never believe what I get to see. Nobody ever sees it.I've never been on television, ever before. But I don't know how you're gonna be able to make a television show out of these experiences of the things that I get to see, how amazing these people are. I don't know how you can make intelligent stuff,”

But that just kind of **** **** due to the nature of that particular company. They had something to prove. So they're going to definitely make a film out of it. And they did it very well. Because here we are, some years later, doing the same film, pretty much. 

And when I would try to go to different producers in Hollywood and all these sorts of things, telling them stories I got. It was so often  … And I even get it to this day. People that are making international television shows and they are hired to make interesting television. And they'll say to me, “You know, culture’s just  … nobody's interested in culture.” Culture’s—quote, end quote–I've heard, “Culture is not hot.” 

“Hot? What are you talking about?”

THALIA:

What does that even mean? 

And then the conversation stops there. 

They're not going to have it. 

They want people that are naked and tied together, trying to escape. Suffering in the wild. That's a more interesting program than these fascinating, diverse cultures on this planet, that have been developing and diversifying for hundreds of thousands of years. I don't, I, you know,  … 

THALIA:

Why is that?

These are the people that are running television and are essentially shaping our societies. 

But they're saying, yeah, you know, “nature shows”. Yeah, they're just, that's not really all that current right now. And nobody really wants to learn about these tribes around the world. I just couldn't believe it. So I just kept doing my own thing and just leaving television behind. 

And I think it was that production company that saw something. And it takes, … 

You have to be incredibly bold to do things that nobody else is doing. 

Which is, I mean, I can't be any more estatic. I'm sharing my passion with the world. And regardless of how many people said before me in the past, saying, “Uh, yeah. That's just not very interesting.”

THALIA:

Yeah, well, and I don't know why that is. I mean, do you have, like, a sense why people think that nature couldn’t—Is it not fast-paced enough? I don't know.

The real danger of the familiar

HAZEN:

Well, it's because we're living in a world where nature  … It should be our fundamental—who we are. We have evolved with nature. We have our DNA. It has been designed so we can pay attention to nature. So we can assess the environment, so we know how to find food, how to find harmony, how to find safety. And that's all in our DNA. That's all in our makeup. 

But every day our world is changing. Faster than it ever has. Today, there's been way more changes than yesterday, and it's happening at an exponential rate. And that change is getting us further and further away from nature. It's not sustainable and we're going against our DNA. 

So that's why you're seeing so much more depression. 

So more and more people have everything that they've ever wanted. And they're not happy.

And it's simple. If we develop a language with nature, which is part of who we are. And of course, in denying that we're denying ourselves as humans. 

And now there's people—there's commissioners—there's people that are making television that they themselves do not have a language. 

They don't have a relationship with nature. So it's totally foreign to them. They don't see the magic. They're attuned to the things that are in their living room. The cars that are on the road, that's familiar to them. So we all do what's familiar to us.

“Oh yeah, let's make a car. I love, I get, I have a super car. I have a motor trend magazine that comes every month. I love seeing cars. I see them everyday. Let's make a movie about super cars.”

Yeah, that's fine. Because that's what you're familiar with. 

Your grandparents, you can pretty much walk, walk the streets with them, and I can guarantee that they, they could probably name all these different individual trees. 

“Oh yeah, that's red fir. That's ponderosa pine. That looks like a vine maple.” 

And that was just part of their vocabulary. And they knew that because they had a connection with it. They were the ones that were probably cutting firewood. They were out going to collect the berries to make the jam. Like, you know, Grandma's canned peaches. And Grandma’s  … Then, you know, they would go out. 

So people had a reason to depend on that nature. And now we're 2-3 generations later. Most of the world, at least a lot of the world that I return to the United States, they pretty much know that there's two kinds of trees. 

There's a maple tree and a pine tree. 

Yes, all they know about it. It's so sad to me, because we don't have any more mentors. Our parents, our grandparents, are gone with those stories and all their ability to tell us: when to go harvest the berries. When do the fish come up the river? When are the foxes going down in that valley? 

It was all common knowledge to everybody. 

And now, we’re denying ourselves of that knowledge. We’re filling it … We have amazing human brains. We continually need to be stimulated. So what we're being stimulated by, are things that are false and things that are not natural. 

And most of the things are things that we have to buy. And that's unfortunate, because you don't have to buy anything with nature. It's already free. It's surrounding us. 

This is what we could’ve been focusing on

THALIA:

And it's new everyday. Things that are different every season. It's like the ultimate place to kind of get all of your resources. And I wonder if you, if it's also the case where, because you talked about how these people are, you get easily unhappy with what they do, and there's depression and all of these things. 

And I wonder if that goes back to your point about  … If you live in just the four walls that you live in, everything is almost, visually anyway, it’s like they’re bearing down on us, right? And then, 

But, when we're outside in nature, it  … We’re constantly having to usually look at something on the ground, or up above, or around us. So the focus is always external. 

And so I wonder—I'm not a psychologist, but that's kind of my observation—is that people who constantly go out to nature, there's this ability to kind of empty themselves and just be like, “OKAY, I'm just gonna look now and just kind of look around and forage and and that's the focus.” 

And that sort of depression chips away when you're doing things like that.

HAZEN:

I think there is. I think, as humans as intelligent as we are …You can take, OK, I'll use my dog as an example. He’s an Australian shepherd breed. A very smart dog, very tuned in. It's like, you know, border collie. If you have those kinds of dogs, you constantly need to be stimulated. If not, they'll eat your shoes. So our brains are like that. We constantly need to be stimulated. And the world's very complex. 

And we have a lot of things that are. You know, quantitative and not qualitative. And I think we're right now, we're kind of assessing the importance of life with everything being so quantitative. 

And if, if you look at our world—like, I'll just put it real simply—If you're in a room with just fourwalls, and that's all it is, our brains are not getting stimulated like they need to be. 

You can take that person that grew up with all those four walls, and they go out of nature, and they treat the woods like that four-walled room. They're not seeing it. They’re not getting it, because that part of the brain has not developed in that way. 

It's like a puppy. You got to teach him everything they can in the first couple years of their life, you know. And then you can't teach a dog new tricks. 

But if you take the kid, or the person that has lived outside, they're seeing, they’re  understanding everything that they don't even see, and they don't even hear. It's almost like there's psychic capabilities. Somebody that's really tuned in outside doesn't see the tracks of the porcupine, but knows that the porcupine was there last night. 

They just know. 

Developing a foresight to be reckoned with

HAZEN:

I mean, people really do have magical powers. And I am not whimsical, I'm not a spooky kind of person. But I've seen so many. So many of these. I live half of my life with these kinds of people. Where the mother of four children in a tribe. Just walks to the hut, and all of a sudden stops and looks up in a tree and sees something. But it made no sound. You couldn't see it. It was in a hole in a tree. There's just an ability. 

And that's, that's like, if there is anyone who says, “What is the difference between animals and humans?” 

Something is very special about humans and their ability to sense and understand things. 

My eyes awoken. I was awake. And then after living 8-9 months, in that sort of situation, and then coming into the United States, yes, I have culture shock. I'd seen Reese's peanut butter before. But it’s an experience. 

THALIA: Like a UFO?

HAZEN: Or like going into a store, and just, even though I've lived with fluorescent lighting, I just could not wrap my head around light coming out of a tube. I was like, “What!?” And the whole grocery store is that way!? And it's so bright! And you can see all the food all the way down the aisle. I mean, I had a serious culture shock. And it went on for a long time. 

And now I guess I jump back and forth all the time. I don't have culture shock.

But there's something really wonderful about culture shock. Is that it really makes you challenge what you're familiar with. After you've been  … you've found this happiness in this whole other part of the world, this whole other culture, whole other language. And you found this happiness. And then you come to this other place that all of a sudden is newly foreign. And you have to find your happiness there. 

And so you start to challenge, like, “Is it right? That light shoots out of glass tubes? Is it right? You don't know. But I think that's good, because I think it deepens you. 

“What did I learn from when I was living with that tribe and I found that happiness? How can I incorporate that into my life that is very non-tribal, you know?”

But there's something very natural to me. Or something that makes so much sense. And you know, thinking about if I was a parent … The wonderful things that I was able to see about how kids are being raised. “How can I?

That is so unconventional if I was to do that in the United States. Everybody would think you're crazy or get you in jail.

Accolade culture: A reckoning

THALIA:

Like what? For, you know, whatever listeners who are listening who aren’t familiar with what it’s like. 

HAZEN:

Oh, just things like all the kids are together. All at the same age. Able to stand every day together. Every waking hour together. And they know, they know  … that they can go right next door to the house next door, the hut next door, and have somebody to play with all day. And there's a posse of girls that wind up getting old enough to where they’re eight years old, seven years, who wound up taking care of the infants. 

And then the toddlers, and they're all innately learning how to take care of each other their entire lives. Until finally, those people … It’s not retiring together. They grow elderly together. And they've never had a day where they never had a playdate. They never miss that day. 

THALIA: Playdate is a western concept, isn't it? 

HAZEN: You think about, it's like I said, you might be thrown in jail for just allowing your kids to just run the streets, just run around and run wild in the woods. But those kids love what they do. They take care of each other. Yeah. But now we're in the society where you have, a lot of times, it’s  … you have to really  … It all comes down to money. 

So hopefully we have pretty darn good careers that can support our families. So you have a husband and wife, or male and female and they're very career oriented. They've invested so much into their careers. Now they're gonna have a child, but to get them to where they are, they have to be very independent. A lot of those, you know,  … They got out of their families, they went off to school, to college, lot of times in some other place in the country. They left their home. They left their neighborhoods. Good for them. 

In our society, those kinds of people get accolades. 

That's what is kind of expected of us to kind of be the self made man. Be that very successful woman. And we kind of grade people’s successes by what they're doing for a living, how much money they're making. 

Well, you get two of those people together, those very successful people. Now they're expected to raise a family. 

Pretty much by themselves. Like them against the rest of the world. Yeah, they left their family support group. Their grandparents aren't able to cover for them. Their aunts and uncles aren't there. Their neighbors that they grew up with, that they could trust with their everything. Those people are gone. 

So now they're in these towns, cities, places where they get their jobs. They don't know anybody. So, yeah. How do you expect parenting to be easy?How do you expect it to work!? And yet, we consider ourselves so much more advanced and so much more modern. But we've gotten away from the most important things in the world, which is essentially raising our children. 

THALIA:

This is something that 's been bugging me a lot, because, you know, because, ….

You know, you mentioned standards of measurements being very different in these different parts of the world. And here in the US, everything is about how much money you make, or how successful you are. And it's almost like we are gaming our life into getting as much, or as many things, Let's just get as much done as possible by our 20s or 30s, right? 

And then there's no thinking. And there's, there's thoughtlessness almost in after that. So it's almost like there's no guidance. And then we're just kind of saying, “Oh, if you get all these degrees, accolades, it's all these things, then everything about your life is going to be great. But personally, I’m going to be very real right now with everyone. It's just kind of, and for a while, I thought that was like, well, yeah, of course. That's just how you're supposed to progress in life. 

But then when I had my kids, it was just, it was absolute pain of realizing that I, I need to sleep, and I can't sleep, and I have nobody to turn to. Like, that's just kind of the feeling of that. Which shouldn't be the case for most parents and moms and dads. 

And I remember stories from my mother told me stories. And, close your ears … this can get pretty graphic, but she was raised in the similar situations that you were describing, where the flock and the herd, everybody is involved. And so she was, it was just groups of kids always traveling everywhere. And even when I was a kid in Indonesia, it was just a group of kids. There's never really any adult. Occasionally you'll get, like, the 8 year old or 10 year old, 12 year old who's kind of the person in charge. And we just literally roamed the streets. We just went everywhere. Nobody cares. 

HAZEN:

It was safe. You never had to worry about the weird neighbor because they weren't. Those people would all treat you as if they were your own. That's what I see in so many places in the world where in the United States, you would think of them ass-backwards or, you know, primitive or third world country. 

And I think it's because of our society, like I was saying, we give accolades to those independent, go getters. You know, I think we cherished them. “Oh, he's such an individual. He's so unique.” And that is great. That is great. And we can do that. But it creates a lot of … “Everybody is so different.”

They’ve been so self absorbed, or individual. Nobody's accountable. So you can get get the weird rapist dude who lives down the street. And there’s no accountability. That he’s there. 

And I think in most places in the world, everybody knows each other so well that everybody is held accountable, and everybody is loved. Everybody has a common goal.

THALIA:

Everybody sort of knows each other to the point that, again, this might be the graphic bit, so everybody can cover their ears. They want to. But I remember my mom telling me that she was wet nursed by everybody who's in the community. And so there's never really any kind of pressure for, you know, moms and dads to take on everything on their own. It's always assumed that you'll have the support of everybody around you, right? And that you will support everybody around you as well. 

Being a lone wolf: good or bad?

THALIA:

So I want to talk about the … Sort of this image that seems to be projected a lot in a lot of these survival shows that you see today. That Lone Wolf superpower. And I kind of get, production-wise, why that happens. 

But is there sort of like a gamification of the culture where people are daring people? “OKAY, I dare you to do that on your own. I dare you to survive on your own in the wild!” And they kind of want, it's almost like a spectacle where they—You know, I mean, I don't know if people can sit and eat popcorn. But they want to see what happens, and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing that's happening—It's almost like a sporting event. 

Do you think that's the case? Or, why is it? Why is there such a particular focus on the lone wolf image? 

HAZEN: It’s a Western thing, I will say. Let's just  … An example of: America seems to be the trendsetter. I'm not going to, I mean, it's best to say, I quote and unquote—“modern world, or the Western world, the capitalist world”—They seem to be the trend setters, right? And the unfortunate thing is, they set these trends. And then, the world sort of follows. And I don't think—it's certainly not intentional. But it just sort of happens. 

And we're talking about the individual being so independent, and being a lone wolf. And we're giving people. We sort of horribly respect that. 

Whereas you can go to other parts of the world, where it's much more tribal or community oriented, and it's not good to be individualistic. It’s not good. Because that means you're just taking care of, you're just thinking of yourself. And in a tribe, you have to take care of everybody around you. And that is your happiness. 

Here, we don't want to get burdened by our parents' living with us. Like, I mean, I can even understand, like, I can go, like, “I love my mom, but I don't really want her living here. Uh, maybe,” you know? But in other settings around the world, you do love. You do love that, like you do want. You want that. You want your parents to live with you. You want that. That's your happiness in life. 

And here we find this happiness of just having our privacy. And having this stuff, and, OK, that's great. You're private, but you're also lonely. And we have more loneliness in this country than anywhere else in the world. We have more depression than anywhere else in the world. 

And it all comes down to, the reason why I believe this is, because we've been trained to be individuals. We've been trained to go out on our own, leave everybody else behind, and forge a path for ourselves. That's great!

But as we're doing it, we're losing relationships. We’re losing friends. It's all about us. We become so incredibly self absorbed. we don't mean to. Nobody wants to call ourselves self-absorbed. But we really had to look out for number one to get where we are. And then once you're there, all you kind of care about is your own feelings. 

And you can go into these third world countries, and their life … When you look at it, “Oh, man.” It could be dirty. You don't really have enough health care. Their food is substandard. And their life sucks. Around the world, the quality of life is not so great. But they’re, you know, not suffering from depression. Because they're more invested in  … 

They need to spend their energy making sure that everybody around them can get through the day and get happy. And that's their happiness. 

And I think depression is really about how I feel, “Why is this happening to me?” I wish there was better terminology. But really, it is about how we feel. 

And I think there's none around the parts of the world. People don't have time. They don't have the luxury to just think about themselves. They have to think about other people. So there isn't depression, because they don't have time for that. It's, you know, it sounds crazy, but it's, it's, it's almost a paradigm shift. 

And I think that is one of the huge reasons why there's so many problems that are developing in the Western world. Because we're all being so incredibly successful, because we're all on our own. 

[TO BE CONTINUED … ]

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