The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Can you ever really know what’s going on inside the mind of another creature?
In some cases, like other humans, or dogs and cats, we might be able to guess with a bit of confidence. But what about octopuses? Or insects? What about AI systems — will they ever be able to feel anything? And if they do feel anything, what are our ethical obligations toward them?
In today’s episode, Vox staff writer Oshan Jarow brings those questions to philosopher of science Jonathan Birch.
Birch is the principal investigator on the Foundations of Animal Sentience Project at the London School of Economics, and author of the recently released book, The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Birch also convinced the UK government to consider lobsters, octopuses, and crabs sentient and therefore deserving of legal protection.
This unique perspective earned Jonathan a place on Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last month — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better.
In this conversation, Oshan and Jonathan explore everything we know— and don't know — about sentience, and how to make ethical decisions about creatures who may possess it.

Guest host: Oshan Jarow
Guest: Jonathan Birch, Author of The Edge of Sentience: Risk and Precaution in Humans, Other Animals, and AI. Available for free on the Oxford Academic platform.
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This week, host Sean Illing gets personal when he asks professor and podcast host Scott Galloway: What’s going on with men?
There’s a growing body of evidence that men are falling behind in education, the labor market, and other areas. And when you look at the numbers on drug overdoses and deaths by suicide, it’s pretty bleak.
Sean and Scott — both of whom are raising sons — talk about the struggles men are facing today, how parents can navigate the current moment, and the challenges they each faced as young men.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Scott Galloway, professor and podcast host
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The sheer feeling of aliveness. We all know what that is, even though it comes in many different forms. Maybe it’s going for a long run at night. Or free-climbing a mountain. Or an intense meditation practice. Or that sensation you get when you’re on the floor at a great concert. Call it a flow state or a religious experience or whatever you want, but it’s a kind of ecstasy.
People have been experiencing this for centuries, and in previous eras, they called it a mystical experience. In the modern world a word like “mystical” feels weird or out of place. Maybe when you hear it, you think of a fringe religious figure. Or a spiritual teacher. Or crystal-peddling influencers on Instagram. But the study of mysticism — that feeling of intense experience — has been the focus of philosophers and theologians for centuries. So what can we learn from the tradition of mystical thought? Might it help us live better and more meaningful lives in the 21st century?
Today’s guest is Simon Critchley. He’s a writer and a philosopher at the New School in New York and the author of a new book called Mysticism. In this conversation, he tells host Sean Illing how we can all get outside our own heads and enjoy what it feels like to be alive.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Simon Critchley, philosopher and author of the book Mysticism
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In this episode, host Sean Illing speaks with marine biologist Ayana Elizabeth Johnson about her book What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures.
Johnson approaches climate change with informed optimism, encouraging us to stop waiting for the worst to happen. She doesn’t reject the realities of a warming planet but reminds us that doomerism is paralyzing us into inaction. In short, having a better climate future begins with envisioning one and then mapping the road to get there.
This unique perspective earned Johnson a place on Vox’s Future Perfect 50 list, an annual celebration of the people working to make the future a better place. The list — published last week — includes writers, scientists, thinkers, and activists who are reshaping our world for the better.
In honor of the Future Perfect 50 — and to remind us all that a better climate future is possible — The Gray Area team is sharing Sean’s interview with Johnson, which originally aired in September 2024.

Click here to find out more about the 2024 Future Perfect 50.
And click here to read Johnson’s profile.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling)
Guest: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, marine biologist and author of What If We Get It Right? Visions of Climate Futures.
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What just happened?
It’s been almost two weeks since the presidential election, and many Americans are still grappling with the result. The political reckoning will probably last for months, if not years, and we may never know exactly why voters made the choices they did. But one thing is clear: the roughly 75 million people who voted for Trump were saying “No” to something. So what were they rejecting?
Today’s guest is Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World. It’s a book about democracy and the contradictions and conflicts at the heart of it.
Beauchamp speaks with host Sean Illing about America’s growing reactionary movement and what it could mean for the country’s political future.
Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Vox senior correspondent and author of The Reactionary Spirit: How America's Most Insidious Political Tradition Swept the World.
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Philosopher Alexandra Plakias says there are no awkward people, only awkward situations. In her book, Awkwardness: A Theory, Plakias explains the difference between embarrassment and awkwardness, how awkwardness can be used by people in power as a way of breaking social norms, and what exactly is happening when people aren’t on the same social script.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Alexandra Plakias, author, Awkwardness: A Theory
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This has been an unusual week. Sean and the TGA team are still sifting through it all and figuring out what to think about the presidential election. In the meantime, our colleague Jonquilyn Hill has leapt into action. She and her team from the Explain It to Me podcast collected lots of listener questions in the aftermath of Trump's victory, and took them to the Vox reporters who know the most about what happened and what it all means. We'll be back with a new episode on Monday. Until then, check out Explain It to Me.
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Wow, what a week. The country has a new president-elect, and our listeners have a ton of questions about what comes next. Why did Latino voters swing right? How will Democrats respond? What’s going to happen to Donald Trump’s court cases? Will Trump really do all the things he said he would during the campaign? Host Jonquilyn Hill sits down with Vox correspondents Christian Paz, Ian Millhiser, and Zack Beauchamp to answer all that and more.

Submit your questions — about politics, or, if you need a break, about anything else — by calling 1-800-618-8545. You can also submit them here.

Credits:
Jonquilyn Hill, host
Sofi LaLonde and Gabrielle Berbey, producers
Cristian Ayala, engineer
Carla Javier, supervising producer
Caity PenzeyMoog, Anouck Dussaud, and Sarah Schweppe, fact checkers
Jorge Just, Julia Longoria, and Natalie Jennings, editors 
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What does it mean to be "woke"? It's become a catchall term to smear or dismiss anything that has any vague association with progressive politics. As a result, anytime you venture into an argument about “wokeness,” it becomes hopelessly entangled in a broader cultural battle. Today’s guest, journalist and professor Musa al-Gharbi, helps us untangle "wokeness" from its fraught political context. The author of a new book, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite, al-Gharbi explains what effects the movement is and isn’t having on our society.

Host: Sean Illing (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Musa al-Gharbi (@Musa_alGharbi), author, We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite,
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What can ancient Rome teach us about American democracy?
The Roman Republic fell for a lot of reasons: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. It sounds a lot like the problems America is facing today.
This week's guest, historian Edward Watts, tells us what we can learn about America's future by studying Rome's past.
Host: Sean Illing, (@SeanIlling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Edward Watts, author, Mortal Republic: How Rome Fell into Tyranny and The Eternal Decline and Fall of Rome.
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Sean Illing speaks with one of his heroes: Werner Herzog.
Herzog is a filmmaker, poet, and author of the memoir Every Man for Himself and God Against All. The two discuss "ecstatic truth," a term invented by Herzog to capture what he's really after in his work, why he's interested in Mars, and whether he thinks humanity is destroying itself.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area
Guest: Werner Herzog, author, Every Man for Himself and God Against All

This episode was originally published in October of 2023.

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