Watch the YouTube version of this episode HERE
What happens when two successful law firm owners take the exact opposite stance on unlimited PTO and both have the results to back it up?
In this episode, Tyson Mutrux sits down with Kevin Cheney and Billie Tarascio separately, so neither hears the other's answers to get the real, unfiltered truth about unlimited paid time off in law firms.
Kevin Cheney has run unlimited PTO at his 37-person firm for 8 years. He's never denied a single vacation request. Zero abuse. Eight figures in revenue. He'll tell you exactly how he makes it work with KPIs, trust, and the right hiring strategy.
Billie Tarascio tried it. She watched roughly 25% of her team take advantage of the policy, her A-players got fed up, and she eventually scrapped it entirely, replacing it with a progressive PTO system that gives employees up to 6 weeks off and a full sabbatical at 10 years.
Same policy. Completely different outcomes. So who's right?
In this episode, you'll learn:
- How Kevin built a culture where 100% of vacation requests get approved and no one abuses itThe 3 accountability pillars Kevin uses instead of tracking days: KPIs, client satisfaction scores, and anonymous peer reviewsWhy Billie says unlimited PTO attracted the wrong candidates and created a "cushiest job" reputationWhat actually caused Billie's A-players to revolt and how she handled taking the benefit awayWhether a tiered PTO system (unlimited for lawyers, structured for staff) is actually legalWhat both owners wish they'd known before implementing the policy
Whether you're building your first firm or rethinking your benefits structure, this conversation will sharpen how you think about freedom, accountability, and culture.
Highlights
00:00 – Introduction: The Great Unlimited PTO Debate
01:06 – Kevin Cheney: Why He's Been All-In for 8 Years
03:39 – How Kevin Defines "Crazy" (Hint: He Doesn't Write It Down)
07:18 – Why Employees Don't Always Believe It's Real
10:05 – How Much Vacation Do People Actually Take?
12:32 – Tracking PTO as a KPI?
15:15 – The Hidden Advantage: No Payroll Tracking Headaches
18:00 – Zero Abuses in 10 Years, Seriously
19:06 – Has Kevin Ever Doubted the Policy?
25:13 – The 3 Accountability Pillars That Replace Day Counting
28:58 – What Kevin Would Do Differently
31:21 – Kevin's Advice to Someone Who Tried It and Failed
34:18 – Part 2: Billie Tarascio's Story
36:02 – When Unlimited PTO Worked for Billie
38:44 – When the A-Players Revolted
42:19 – How Bad Did the Freeloader Problem Get? (~25%)
43:07 – The Attraction Problem: Were You Hiring the Wrong People?
48:04 – How Hard Was It to Take the Benefit Away?
51:06 – What Billie Replaced It With (Up to 6 Weeks + Sabbatical)
56:45 – Is Billie Ever Going Back to Unlimited PTO?
58:00 – Billie's Message to Kevin
1:06:01 – Final Advice for Anyone Considering Unlimited PTO
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